Tim Montague: Kimberlee, thank you for coming on the show. Please tell our listeners what TerraPro Solutions does.
Kimberlee Centera: We help our clients understand the entire scope of their projects, so we are different than land firms that may only do acquisition. Because we are focusing on the whole project, we want our clients to understand all the different issues. We specialize in financing, so we are always preparing our clients for imminent financing. We really specialize in helping de-risk the projects.
Tim Montague: I imagine that there are probably many potential issues that could prohibit them from moving forward with financing construction. Could you drill down on that a little bit. What is included in risk mitigation?
Kimberlee Centera: It can be something as simple a sitting across the kitchen table from a landowner and signing a lease. They say I own the property and then you look at title and you realize that title to the property is held by other parties. We have had cases where we have had three and four probates on a piece of property, so we always start with site control. Site control is fundamental to these projects, from lender scrutiny you know everything that we do is built on that basis. We also look at stakeholders. Having worked in many jurisdictions for many years we realize the importance of building an alliance with the people. We always look at the totality of the project, not just the land.
Tim Montague: You mentioned that you work with developers and that is how I met you. But what other types of clients do you have?
Kimberlee Centera: Developers predominantly, but we certainly work with banks, with title companies, ALTA survey companies, and investors who want to understand the extent of the risk. One thing about renewables is that the risk perspective is so different depending upon the timing of the project. In some cases, we work with banks or investors who want to understand the commercial risks. I always ask basic questions like in which city and county is the project located; how many megawatts it is; and what are the milestones. Knowing these kinds of things, we can define the risk.
Tim Montague: I imagine that there are some unique risks affiliated with utility scale. How do you define utility scale? If you are a solar developer, at what scale do you need a TerraPro Solutions?
Kimberlee Centera: A lot depends on the business model and the risk of the project. With smaller projects of maybe five megawatts or less, the risk perspective is different, and the investment is different. Utility scale is $200 million $300 million or more, the investment and the risk are substantial. I consider 25 megawatts and above as utility scale. But it can also be defined by the risk and by the deal structure.
Tim Montague: Let us just say you have 100-megawatt project, we see it a lot here in the Midwest, 100 to 300 megawatt seems to be the sweet spot. Does the risk profile vary a lot from region to region? Are things different here in the Midwest in Texas or in California?
Kimberlee Centera: Absolutely, it is really an important to understand where the project is located. If you are in Kern County California, you are going to have certain issues compared with Colorado or New Mexico. We have a project now that is facing a multi-million-dollar issue because of severed mineral rights. You must know what to look for. In Colorado, in some cases on the permitting they have on solar projects they have given standing to the mineral holders. In some cases where require you to go out on a solar project and obtain surface waivers as part of your permitting. To me that that can be daunting if that much leverage is in the hands of a third party, it could be very difficult, so it is really important to understand those nuances when you go into a certain area.
Tim Montague: You know here in the Midwest so much of it is a green field, most landowners have not seen ground-mounted solar in their backyard. In 10 years, it will be a common thing and attitudes will change but there is still a fair amount of “not in my backyard ism” going on. What is the ideal development stage for you to get involved in a project?
Kimberlee Centera: I talk a lot about around risk mitigation. Time is one of the most important things that we can have on our side. Time is such a huge leverage for us, that is what I like to help our clients understand. If we have a client looking to acquire a portfolio of projects, we like to work with them at the earliest stage, to have them understand all the different issues and what are we facing. In my view, if you want to make smart decisions, it must be based on what you know. Because what you do not know will get you. We did due diligence for one client on title and we found we had a break in the chain for vesting which means that they we were not going to be able to substantiate the ownership. We were going to have to go back and get a new patent issued and then we were going to also have to do a quiet title action, so the costs were going to be a couple hundred thousand dollars and it was going to take over two years two to three years to get all that resolved, Well that why you want to make an informed decision. So, you may say this is not going to be developed for five years we have got plenty of time, the returns are going to be great and it’s a risk that we’re willing to take. Or you may look at it and say no, the project has to be in the ground in two years that’s not going to work, The most important thing for us is getting involved early, so we can work with our clients to help them understand all these issues, so that they know what they are facing, what needs to be done and whom to talk to resolve it.
Tim Montague: Let us dig a little deeper, what is included in front-end due diligence and risk assessment?
Kimberlee Centera: Site control is the foundation piece of these projects. Site control initially would be looking at your agreements; have you got the right people signed; do you have someone looking at the title; starting to look and even working with surveyors and identifying the landscape of the property. We know that to get this insured for title insurance it will have to pass due diligence.
Tim Montague: Looking at the totality what are the things that we might be facing?
Kimberlee Centera: We do a lot of work with our clients on title insurance. The whole title insurance landscape has changed, and we follow these changes. There are huge costs around some of this. In a state like Texas, a 250-megawatt project may cost almost a million dollars for title insurance. You need to understand early on you know what some of these issues are, especially with solar. Solar is different from wind, with solar we are covering the entirety of the property. Some of the mitigations that we use for wind…there is plenty of land, turbines are really spaced out, this does not work in solar. With solar we are going to take all the property, so when we are looking at anything that is going to affect that property, any third-party rights, we need to understand all of that at the outset. If we run into issues down the road and we suddenly must start changing our design. We may lose huge pieces of property because of some issue with a conservation easement or something else that has come up will cause us to have to move to another piece of property. It can be a challenge.
Tim Montague: That reminds me of the Prairie Solar project here in champaign county, it’s a 1200 acre solar farm that is in development not in construction yet and they got feedback from the village that the village really wanted to earmark some of that ground for future development. Luckily BayWa r.e. had the flexibility, with your assistance, to relocate a significant portion of the project further east, but that is no small potatoes.
Kimberlee Centera: No, it is not. Our counties and our local jurisdictions are not always sympathetic. I worked on a solar project in Imperial County, where we were hardwired on our design, basically it was done and we were working with the county, because as part of our permitting process they were requiring that the project dedicate certain portions of the road for public use. We see this sometimes with counties, they use the leverage of the permitting process to get some of these things done that you know maybe they would not ordinarily get done. I remember having a call because they wanted us to extend out by a total of 80 feet so 40 additional feet on either side of the right-of-way. I had the map out and we were talking about it and I said this this is our project boundary, this is where the panels are and we don’t have another 80 feet that we can give you to be able to meet this extended right-of-way. So, we ended up in discussions around how do we work this out to be able to get them what they wanted and eventually we were able to do that. The dedications were completed but even something as simple as the dedications, which oftentimes are agreed to through the permitting process and everyone kind of thinks oh it’s not a big deal, we’ll just dedicate wherever we need to, but when you start to look at the parameters of the project, what’s available, how much land you have, what you’re even permitted to do, your landowner may not even own the property to be able to do that. It can be something as simple as a dedication that you end up spending a lot of time trying to work out with the with the agencies.
Tim Montague: I want to remind our audience, we have a healthy group on here, that you can put questions in the chat and both Kimberlee and I can see those. I will be happy to cue Kimberlee with the questions. This is a great opportunity to interact directly with a very seasoned developer here so please engage. Let us talk a little more about the stages of due diligence, can you walk us through that.
Kimberlee Centera: Typically, you have the pre-development phase. That is when you are doing your initial due diligence, acquiring the land, entering into the contracts. You are trying to get the boundaries of your project solidified, we are really looking at site control and trying to understand our site. Then we move into what we call pre-construction, which is also in anticipation of financing for construction. At that point we become focused on notice to proceed. Typically, that will trigger a lot of important questions. Our construction contractor will want to know what is the design; where we do we have all the rights; do we understand all the title insurance and ALTA survey; have we looked at everything that goes into the ALTA survey, so that our design can be carried through. Then we come into our financing, that is where the rubber hits the road in terms of getting all the due diligence together. We have a protocol that we like to follow, we have certain checklists we like to use to have tick-offs. We like to work very closely and engage with our parties and make sure that they are educated and they understand the project, which helps to mitigate costs and everyone is working from the same sheet of music. Then we go through construction and sometimes we are involved in that in terms of just making sure that you know what the plan is, how things get constructed. Ideally are conversations during that period of time, things change in construction, a lot of times what looks like it’s going to work perfectly has to be changed, so we need to make sure that we’re communicating about those changes. Then we go into operations, we have created a lot of schedules and a lot of pieces that travel with the project. Because I have worked on operations, it is one thing to be on the front end and negotiate all these leases, but it’s another thing to be on the back end to actually execute on them and comply. Making sure that all that information gets passed on all the way to the back end of the project is super important.
Tim Montague: Wonderful, thank you. So, we have already identified a couple of stakeholders in these utility scale projects. You have the landowners, you have local jurisdictions including the county, perhaps towns and villages or cities. Perhaps the state is influential, certainly around environmental, you have the state EPA. What other stakeholders are you working with and how do you navigate that and build trust with stakeholders?
Kimberlee Centera: It is a great question Tim, because for us it is fundamental to our work. These projects go through cycles. Many times, when you are working in a jurisdiction, there will be a momentum that happens with projects, that just fuels more and more development. You are seeing it in Champaign County right now and a lot of Illinois is experiencing that momentum. Having been in situations where I have come in after other people have maybe burned the bridges a little bit, it is super important to make sure that those relationships are open and there’s clarity and transparency.
You mentioned the prairie solar project, that was interesting. There is a local utility there, just as we were completing our design, they were widening their transmission easement, which happens to run through several parcels, so what was 150 foot easement may suddenly be a 300 foot easement. When you think about stakeholders, it is easy to overlook stakeholders like that. It is important to pay attention, you want to have conversations with those utilities or some folks that you might overlook. We have had cases where we have a cemetery, this happens more in the southeast, where the county or the city wants to make sure that there’s access. There are certain things that we identify things we need to circle back on and find out who the parties are and make sure to talk to them. This can vary from project to project, but it is something to pay attention to because it can materially affect your design. In our case this transmission line that runs through the middle of several of our parcels. They are senior to us when you consider the legalese and the financing. They are not going to go away, and we are not going to go away. We have a permitted project, so we must figure out a way to work together.
Tim Montague: That’s quite a curveball, I hope the project survives that.
Kimberlee Centera: Oh, it will. These are things that you encounter, and therefore it is so important to look at the totality of the project. We love to sit down and really talk about it, because we are not just looking at a series of leases, we are looking at an entire project. I have had issues come up around access and I’ve had to explain to people this idea that there is physical access and then there is insurable access, and they can be two very different things. I have had conversations with people, and they ask me what the big deal is, I can drive from the highway up over to the project and it is not a big deal. It is a dirt road, it has never been dedicated to the county, we are not going to get it insured. That means we are not going to be able to have a lender come in and invest in our projects. So, we have to figure out a way as we’re looking at this, to make sure that we are looking at transmission, we’re looking at the point of interconnect, we’re looking at the project and all the different pieces. Let us make sure that we are looking at all our stakeholders. I work with a lot of transmission design and I love the engineers, because it’s like point A to point B, it’s a straight line, but in the real world we know it doesn’t work that way. We know that not everybody in a solar project on agricultural land necessarily wants a transmission line running through the middle of their project to the point of interconnection. Then you have to start deviating and then you have to start looking at things like where are the barns, where are the houses, where can we redesign this in a way that is least intrusive. These are our stakeholders, and we need to be able to work with them. Sometimes they are involved in the project and sometimes they are not. We look at all the different pieces and making sure that you are understanding it from a high level.
Tim Montague: We have a question about de-risking in various stages of project development. I’m not sure I completely understand the question, but the question is how much is de-risked prior to having a buyer, in this case the buyers counsel, try to earn their keep, and how much is de-risked in the final phase when you’re negotiating an exit or a sale? What do you say to that?
Kimberlee Centera: Here is my view. If I am sitting in the seat of the seller, I would prefer to know what all the potential issues are, because that way I know what I am negotiating. There is nothing worse than sitting there and having due diligence come in and suddenly you have 30 pages of issues that you were not aware of. A lot of times it becomes the subject of negotiation. If people have worked on these deals, they know depending upon who’s acquiring the project, some companies will come in and say nope we’ll take it just like it is we’ll figure it out we’ll solve it. In other cases, they put the burden on the seller of the project to fix whatever the title issues are. We talked about the difference between site control and perfected site control and in those cases the difference can be that they have not carefully looked at the title. Are there any senior liens that we need to address? I have seen cases where that requirement to go out and perfect the site control is put on the seller of the project, so it really becomes a matter of negotiation. Our clients prefer to know, they would rather have us tell them what we see and evaluate risks and we will say here is a huge risk and here is a small risk. We did a review project for a company in California and they had a series of sites that they were trying to prioritize and they were using different methods and one of the methods that they used was a title review. We had one piece of property we looked at for them, pristine title, perfect, except that it was about 20 miles from an interconnection. Then we had another piece of property that we looked at for them, the title had all kinds of oil and gas leases, it had a mineral severance held by Chevron, it had a $43 million dollar prior deed of trust. When I look at something like that and I say okay, a half section of land has a $43 million dollar deed of trust, that is a valuable piece of ag property. As you are making decisions, we are going to have to get that deed of trust subordinated, so what are some of the things that we are going to look at? What other property is that deed of trust attached to? There is a strategy, you might go in and say we are going to take all this property out of agricultural use, and we are going to put a solar farm here. The question from that lender is going to be how am I going to get paid? This is not even on the project side; this is just on the property side. These folks did not want to do anything about it today, but they wanted to be able to understand the different risks associated with these different sites. That is an example of how you can look at it from the perspective of understanding and prioritizing risk.
Tim Montague: It seems like you are digging deeper and deeper, but then there is also a cycle that will inevitably repeat itself during that process. Let us talk a little more about your relationship with the developer and stakeholders. I can imagine it could be quite difficult for you to really be as involved as you might want to be, it’s up to the developer to open the kimono and let you in, isn’t it?
Kimberlee Centera: That’s right, it varies. Sometimes we will do our review and our due diligence, and our clients will want to undertake some of the work on their own. One of the things we do, and we’re super proud of the fact that we build an alliance with our clients and they end up feeling like we’re part of their development team, because we put ourselves in their shoes. It is the difference between looking at these from a project perspective or just looking at it as a piece of land. As we work with our clients, we really go the step beyond, because these projects feel like our projects. I still feel like I am a dirt person, I have got dirt in me, that is just my thing. We all really take an ownership with the clients and try to guide them as best we can. We are always going to let our clients know what we know. If we see issues obviously it is up to our clients to decide how they want to approach it, but we want to make sure that they are making informed decisions, the best decisions. We have a lot of experience and we see things that come up. We are working on a storage project right now, a 70-megawatt storage project, our clients underestimated the importance of the stakeholders. They were going to have a hearing and they thought this hearing ultimately decided for the county, but it is not decided at the city level. How important was this? It was important, because the city was going to be weighing into the county in terms of how things were going to proceed. There had not been good communication, so a lot of concerns were raised. So they came in and they said we need you guys to help us, help us manage this, help us with the relationships and help us help everyone else understand what it is that we’re doing here.
Tim Montague: I always say solar is a team sport and the more everybody can be on the same team the better. Sometimes that works and sometimes it does not. Tell us a little more about the relationship between yourselves, the developers and lenders and investors, because there is quite a power dynamic isn’t there?
Kimberlee Centera: Yes, there absolutely is. I financed a lot of projects over the years and there are certain practices that really work well. Understanding the project and being proactive is so important. When we start due diligence, we have a call and we lay the project out including some of the hairy stuff, and we make sure that everyone understands the big picture. What I found over many years of working with counsel for lenders and tax equity, is that if you’ve taken the time to be thoughtful and put together your information and organize your it in a certain way, and present it in a certain way, it lays the framework for a collaborative negotiation. We have a checklist that we use to communicate the status, and we are always working with people to get the answer. Communication and responsiveness are probably the most important things that can be done to bridge that relationship. We understand the questions. I have attorneys tell me that they still set-up their due diligence the way that I set up my due diligence. I like to have everything line up and be clear. In the old days you would send out boxes of material and everybody is saying oh my gosh what is this? Having it well organized lays the foundation for collaboration.
Tim Montague: From my perspective there are two basic categories of developers, there are those developers who build and flip either pre-notice to proceed or post notice to proceed, and those who are going to develop and be long-term owners operators, but that doesn’t preclude a sale down the road. What are the differences? How do you see that?
Kimberlee Centera: Good question. I agree with you and I certainly get the idea that you know there is a spectrum. If you can get site control and acquire a series of leases, some developers are going to get that site control together and then they are going to sell the assets. Then you have others that take it up to notice to proceed. Obviously, it is a value proposition. The farther along you have developed a project, where able to demonstrate that, the more valuable it is going to be. At the same time there are other entities that just give us site control and we will deal with the rest of it. Often small development shops don’t really understand, they don’t work on the financing side, some provision they concede, might seem like a real simple thing, but they may not realize the implications on the financing side. In my experience, you can amend you and can get almost anything financed. Through the years with motivated entities you can work together. If you have negotiated in good faith, I have negotiated with water districts where you go in and think it is a negotiation and it is not a negotiation. Basically, here is what we are willing to do and here is what we are not willing to do. The bureau of land management, state agencies, you work with what you get, I think you know there is absolutely a place for all these developers. I do not have a single client who is not willing to look at a site they are interested, to look at the benefit. There is absolutely a place for all those different developers in the spectrum of renewables.
Tim Montague: It sounds like fundamentally you are functioning as the glue between the developer and the investors. Do you want to say more about that? That sounds like a critical role, but it also sounds like a complicated water to navigate.
Kimberlee Centera: That’s right. In my experience of development and certainly working with clients I have seen the benefit of structuring your project, of having all lease agreements and title work complete, of understanding all the pieces. We had a project where we lost count of how many probates we had, where we had to go back and clear title. If you have all of that together, that’s where our real benefit is, we know what the lenders want to see, we know what tax equity wants to see, we know how they like to have the material presented, so by the time we get it into their hands it’s very clean. It is all together in a form where everything matches and it makes sense, it makes it easier for everyone. The banks and the attorneys appreciate having everything well-organized well-thought-out. There are many cases where we’re working on a financing and there really isn’t a commercial lead, and for me that’s a critical role, because I’ve seen what happens if there isn’t someone who’s leading and directing the transaction. That can be our role whether we are on point with our client or we are just helping our client behind the scenes. We want to help them be prepared in looking at all these different issues, looking at the totality of the project, looking at the point of interconnection, transmission access, where the improvements are going to go. It really makes for a much smoother transaction; I think that is probably one of the greatest benefits we can bring to the table in terms of developers and banks.
Tim Montague: When you say commercial lead though. what is it that you mean?
Kimberlee Centera: There needs to be someone on the developer side who understands the transaction and is leading the transaction, is making the decisions, is pushing the transaction through, because if you don’t manage these transactions they take on a life of their own. So, it is important to have someone on the developer side that is managing the transaction, usually you are managing to a closing date. The benefit of having everything packaged and having it all together and being able to sit down and have a call and explain your project and say this is the deadline, here are all the things that we’ve done, here are all of our perfected site control, our pro forma, our ALTA survey. We get involved in looking at the financing agreement and some other representations and warranties, all the different documentation, making sure that that is all together. Even something as simple as never typing a legal description more than once because little mistakes happen. That is really a huge benefit. The other important area besides the financing at the early stage is what we call fatal flaw review or due diligence. Even for the smaller developers they can benefit from understanding where the potential issues are. Then they can choose to fix them or not, but at least they have the benefit of knowing where we could have some potential gotchas that we want to be aware of.
Tim Montague: I have a few audience questions that we can take right now. Doug asks how important is the environmental due diligence on these larger utility scale sites and how do you address those as a company?
Kimberlee Centera: Environmental is critical. We do not typically do environmental review but understanding it is crucial. Looking at those different layers and depending based upon the jurisdiction that you are in, there are going to be different concerns. It is particularly important to make sure that you look at where there may be implications that can ripple through the whole project. Oftentimes we are dealing with land that is farm ground in the Midwest. You would think this land is already heavily impacted, farming is quite an industrial practice in in the modern world, but they lay fresh eyes on it. What is going on with storm water, what is going on with endangered species, what is going on with the vegetation on the site and how is that going to change during the development. So, you must be very proactive and expect the best but plan for the worst. You cannot be too prepared. The way that we work with the environmental pieces, most of our solar leases have an option for all the property, either a separate option or an option incorporated within the lease. But then there is this ability to designate certain property that you want to incorporate for purposes of the project. Then you are going to have a legal description drawn for that particular property. One of the ways that we’re going to work with the environmental teams is there may be certain areas that we want to avoid when the environmental work comes back, the design and how it’s laying out. We are going to work with the teams. If we’ve got an impact over here for wetlands, or sometimes you’ve got little home cemeteries, or you’ve got areas especially on agricultural land, that you want to avoid because of some contamination and you don’t want to do all the reclamation, so we will work with the teams on the design in order to take all those different things into account. As you start to craft those legal descriptions, you have got to make sure that you have got access. You don’t want to create a legal description and all of a sudden you’ve got property to the north and property on the south and a transmission line in between, and you don’t have a way to get up to your property on the north. We look at all those factors, considering all the input we receive, which includes the environmental impact study.
Tim Montague: Another question about title insurance, can you speak to what title insurance costs are in other places you. I think you referred to Texas, the listener estimates four dollars a megawatt from your comment, do title insurance costs vary much throughout the country.
Kimberlee Centera: They do they do. It varies a lot and it really depends upon state in which your project is located and whether there is an ability to negotiate. In California you have more of an option to negotiate on title coverage. Some states are promulgated, some states are statutory. If we’re going to help our clients place a project with a certain carrier we want to have that conversation. We will say there is going to be financing, there is going to be a transaction in June of next year. We will want an owner’s policy and a lender’s policy and we will need these coverages and we want to make sure that we are going to be able to get those coverages. What is the cost going to look like and what are your requirements going to be? It is something people do not really think about until the last minute and suddenly they have some difficult requirements that they must try to tackle to close on a transaction.
We worked on a project where, in order to get our mechanics lien coverage for our lender, which was a requirement, first lien is always for the lenders, we had to go out and get 40 additional documents just days prior to our closing. There was a series of subordinations and different documents that were going to be required. We can assemble a team we get that going and we get it done, so that we can close on the transaction.
Tim Montague: Kimberlee, in the few minutes we have left, what do you say to developers? There is a spectrum in terms of their capabilities, their experience level. You have worked with some of the best developers like ENGIE, who we have had a wonderful experience with, but it is not like that all the time. What do you see as an industry? Solar is still a very nascent industry, even though the technology is mature, as an industry it is still new but growing extremely fast. What would you like developers to know and do better with?
Kimberlee Centera: That is a great question. This is not an easy business to succeed in, it is a tough business. I have been around for a long time and I have seen the cycles and you have got to really persevere through a lot of tough stuff. Every time we close a project it is great because you can always debrief and say okay what did we learn this time, so we are ready for the next one. I think realizing the power of relationships and stakeholders, you really need to know what you are facing, that would be my strongest recommendation for developers. Find those good partners, find those stakeholders that are going to align with you in terms of helping you to really understand your project and what it is that you are bringing to the market. It is a way for us to really capture the most value, and this is all about value and about the money, it’s all about being able to close on the financing, close on the deal. So really making sure you have got good stakeholders, so you have got help early on to really understand your projects. Being willing to reach out and ask for help is super important especially early on, because time is a powerful leverage. There is one thing that is most helpful for us it is not having a closing tomorrow. Having the benefit of time to be able to position ourselves, so we can really maximize our projects.
Tim Montague: In the final minutes here, let us talk a little more about the future, where do you see the opportunities in solar development and what is your vision for the future of your work?
Kimberlee Centera: I think solar is really poised to explode more than it has. I think we are seeing changes in wind as well, but I think solar is a great opportunity for a lot of people. The best part about these renewable projects is it really makes a difference for a lot of the people who might otherwise not be able to benefit from this. It has a real benefit to the local communities. I think for the future one of the things I would love to see is better policy. because there are so many, it is hard to predict from jurisdiction to jurisdiction what you are going to be facing. If there was more consistency, if certain things were more predictable, that would really help us a lot. I would love to see that as part of the future, to be able to foster renewables. As you said, there is a lot of “not in my backyard.” Even now, there is a lot of opposition. Having consistent policy would really help us across the board, would really help us to succeed. Sometimes where it is very difficult to know what you are trying to subscribe to. Is it the city, is it the county, is it the state? That is going to be very important. Solar is going to continue to be a huge resource and I am excited to be a part of it, it is an exciting industry. I feel very blessed to have the opportunity to be here right now, it is a great time.
Tim Montague: Thank you so much Kimberlee Centera of TerrPro Solutions, how can our viewers and listeners find you?
Kimberlee Centera: Our website is www.terraprosolutions.com there’s a place where you can email and you’ll hear from us. We would love to hear from you, and you will hear back.
Tim Montague: Kimberlee has a wonderfully organized staff; I want to thank all of them for setting this up and making this happen it was just a fantastic experience. Thanks to all our listeners. Let us grow solar and storage. Have a great day everybody and thank you again Kimberlee Centera.